Because of the nature of the new album the content of the interview was largely political. However, for personal reasons, Manfred chose to cut off my taperecorder before disclosing the more sensitive details behind the album's political connotations; and I, for one, am not about to blow the gaff on that confidence. Politics is a very delicate subject in the state of South Africa and noses can easily be put out of joint, but that's what I was here to discuss, and that's what I got.

What made you write 'Somewhere in Afrika?

"It was a sort of accident, I didn't mean to write it. We'd recorded 'Redemption Song' and I didn't think it had succeeded. This was an earlier version, I record things about three times, but the backing track wasn't bad so I decided to write another song over that. I went home and looked through some books on South Africa looking for some lyrics and the first lines I came to were: 'What do they do to a man whose Father was a Swazi?' etc. (To Bantustan?') and I just started using that, and the song was written over the same three chords as 'Redemption Song'. That seemed to work so then I thought I'd write an introduction, which was 'Brothers & Sisters of Africa' . . . so there you go. "And there we were singing 'To Kwazulu, Bophuthatswana . . . ' and I thought the real way to do this is to get African guys to sing it; and then if you're going to get Africans to sing it why not do it in Africa?! Then I started using some ethnic African tapes and I know some guys who've got access to other tapes and things.

"Some of those tapes, like the beginning of 'Brothers & Sisters Of Africa' and 'Somewhere In Africa', are just traditional African music which we just mixed in with what we were doing; put a few tambourines on one, mixed one in with an organ ... and it was all so easy, that's what's so ridiculous! We just switched on the African tapes and found it was all in the same key we'd recorded our stuff in quite by accident-you just have to go with a thing when it's working like that.

"You go along and get a tape that's recorded 20 years ago in South Africa, the opening tape on Side 2, and you plug it in on 'Brothers and Sisters of Africa' and it's in a relative major key, and it works! You didn't plan it, it just works!"

Can you explain how the system of the Bantustans works?

"Well, I can only explain it in very layman terms, I don't really know it well.

"The whole basis of South African racialism is ideological and that base is that these people are not being deprived of rights in South Africa anymore than a Frenchman is being deprived of his rights in England. When he comes to England he doesn't have the vote, he can be thrown out if he doesn't have a work permit- I don't know about the Common Market now, but normally when someone goes to another country- and the basis is very simple! These are not actually South African citizens, these are citizens of Kwazulu, Bophuthatswana, Transkei, and these places are areas of the country -and I'm explaining this from the South Africans' point of view- and the people who come out of there are just migrant labourers, just like Turkish people in Germany.  "That's how it works. So when you're in White South African areas if you have a job that's fine, but if you lose your job you can be sent back home Well, great! Except that these people ARE South Africans, and the whole thing is based on nonsense.

"Some of these areas are no larger than a big farm, with no industry, therefore the song goes: "What do they do with a man whose Father was a Swazi? etc . . . /Do they send him to Kwazulu, Bophuthatswana or Transkei? ask why?"  I mean, where would you send that person to They're just making this up!  So when you attack that you attract the whole basis on which their system rests in their minds. They're not racist! These people are just migrant labourers.  Soweto's full of people who don't really belong in Johannesburg, they're just there as guests while they're working in that area, which is OUR area!  They can go back to their own area!  But they want to be in White areas, in fact, because that's where the employment is, so they're flocking in; but if it's so terrible

why do they all want to come here? It's all quite funny really

So according to the South African Government what constitutes a South African citizen?

"I don't actually know how they would define it, but I've got pretty close to having a skin that reflects a bit more light than some of the other people! Ha! I don't know. It's very difficult to be a South African citizen if you tend to be absorbing the sunlight!"

Do you think politics should intrude into the world of commercial pop? Does it have any place?

"It's very hard to do and the problem I had all the time was to try and ensure that the words sounded right and that it was music. The most important thing was you could listen to it without having to think and be terribly serious, that it's music first and foremost. If the drummer's out of time it doesn't matter that you happen to be writing 'Das Kapital', you know!

"If some message comes across that's fine, if it doesn't that's fine too. The important thing is-does it sound good? The politics are secondary, that's a personal thing for the people who want to pick it up, and if you don't you should be able to leave it."

Do you think rock 'n 'roll can ever change the world?

"Ha! I certainly don't think rock 'n 'roll can change the world! I don't mean to laugh but it's such a delusion. I mean, seriously, look at the world and try and imagine if rock 'n 'roll could actually change it! It's crazy!"

But as rock 'n 'roll is very much a youth orientated culture, what if someone could capture that and motivate them into some sort of action, which no-one has actually done, it could be a very political force.

"But that would probably be a terrible thing!"

Why?

"Well, first of all, who wants a 'powerful political force' based on songs? Could you really imagine, and reality now not just words, all the people who go to gigs actually dealing with unemployment in the Midlands? I mean, I'm not saying the Government can handle it, and I'm not saying the guys in Parliament are wonderful human beings, but, Christ, there's no unity of ideas, the only unity is the music, that's the ideal!

"You'd probably land up with something incredibly fascist. I don't know what it means: 'powerful political force' for what? What would they do? What would be their policy

on . . . capital punishment? What would be their policy on someone raping their sister? If you really put it into real terms: OK, here's the 'Youth Party', now let's see their policy on hanging; what's the budget going to be? What are we going to do about single-parent families? What's the budget for housing this year? Is it socialist, is it not-socialist; is it left-wing, is it right-wing?

"I don't know what it means to say 'youth'. I mean, youth is pretty self-obsessed, finding out who you are and stuff, which is fine ... but really! Christ, who's going to lead this 'Youth Movement'? Musicians!? F**k me, mate, go out and meet a few rock 'n 'roll musicians and try to figure out what problems they're going to solve! Ha! I mean, it's nice to talk about over a coffee table, but if you actually take it seriously it's crazy!"

So politics for politicians?

"I must say, generally speaking, I trust politicians more than the people because I try to imagine what would happen if you actually asked THE PEOPLE what to do about Northern Ireland-they'd probably be hunting terrorists, or inventing terrorists, on every street corner; what to do about football hooligans-they'd probably have their hands cut off if it was left to The People. You'd be putting people in the stocks, and drowning them to see if they were witches! No, I don't believe in The People at all. People are pretty fascist actually.

"I honestly believe if you went round a few housing estates and held up a lot of political policies and took them away from being associated with any political parties, and you asked them what they felt about various social issues you'd find people's general feelings very close to the National Front. If it wasn't couched in those terms and if it didn't have 'National Front' on it and somebody appearing as those guys are, just took it away and made it look more respectable ... That's my view, maybe a depressing view, you may disagree with it."

What would you like to see the British Government doing about South Africa?

"I don't really know what the British Government should do. At the end of the day I must say I really do feel the African Struggle is an African struggle. What I don't like in Britain is the total and utter hypocrisy of people who are upset about cricketers going to South Africa while British Leyland has factories there. I just find that unbelievable. I don't have any sympathy for the cricketers although I understand their point of view; here's guys who don't earn a lot of money suddenly offered a fortune, you know.  "But it's just crazy! Trading all day long! But even people on the left who are against South Africa and the cricketers, fine, but they wouldn't say let's cause some unemployment in the Midlands by closing down the factory that we provide some equipment for in South Africa, just ignore that!

If we didn't trade the French would or the Germans would. And these economic boycotts are just pointless activity. Going round and not buying South African grapes is crazy, you just put one African labourer out of a job! You're either effective or you're not. And if you're going to be effective then everybody does it, then it's really damn effective. But if only Britain's going to do it then you might as well not bother."

Then were UN sanctions a waste of time?

"UN sanctions against South Africa? Waste of time! Nobody would adhere to it in the end. In fact the only thing that will change South Africa is the people themselves. That's the sad truth, I certainly don't think it's my job."

Does the kind of cross-cultural influence used on 'Somewhere in Afrika' interest you?

"It did on this album. I thought there was great atmosphere to that flute playing and that kind of electric vocoder in the background. It just all fitted so well, there was a unity between something very tribal, in that case very ethnic, and what we were doing which was generated by a machine in some instances. 'Brothers & Sisters of Africa' starts off with a choir singing 20 years ago, I think, and the first sounds that come in from us is a Roland drum-machine, and it all hits!"

!s this something you're going to explore again?

"I don't think so, I wouldn't know how to go about it to be honest. I might do at some point in the future. It is difficult to know where to go nowadays because so many people are using computers and they all end up buying the same as everybody else."

But on the evidence of 'Somewhere In Afrika' 1 wouldn't have thought Manfred Mann was going to have too many problems on that score.